Ben Cullen
Ben Cullen



John Crane Interviews Ben Cullin October 15, 1959

Re-transcribed from the original audio tape by Copyright 2008.

1. CRANE: How did you meet Rife?

CULLEN: In 1913 a Pierce Arrow with a fellow drove up and said, “Well I'd like to put the car in the garage there,” and I said fine. And something about him attracted me to him. I liked him, he seemed to be so doggone sincere. He (Rife) said to me, “I’ve just driven in from the east, from back New York State,” he says, and he talked about the various states he had driven through. “I’m going to have to have this engine over hauled. So when I do it, I want to do it with the utmost care,” “Well I said, you’ve come to the right place. I think I can give you what you want.” And he was with this fellow, Timken, Henry H. Timken, and pretty soon he got acquainted more and more with him and pretty soon he said, “I have a Kittyhawk boat,” he says, “with a big six cylinder Van Berk. I’d like to get the doggone thing out of the water and get it over-hauled.” Well, I had this boat tow car with a boom on the end of it and it was the only darn thing around that could back up to the edge of a wharf and pull anything out from a boat. It also served the purpose of lifting up several boxes of, what was marked machinery, from a destroyer which turned out to be the nicest doggone Scotch Whiskey you ever tasted in your life. I did that for Admiral Robertson. Any way to make a long story short I fixed the Van Berk, pulled it out and fixed it up.
And Roy used to come down and play his French horn, play on the guitar, and the mandolin, or something, and doggone he'd send us fellows into our seventh heaven. He could play absolutely perfect in those days. He started one day playing his French horn and, ah, he played "Rigoletto’s”, oh, what was it now, not Rigoletts it was, it had, it was in “Rigoletto’s”. It was played in the El Trovatore. He also played a number of very wonderful pieces and the whole blasted block from one end to the other got up there and came in that thing, in that garage. There must of been about a hundred people there before he quit, and his eyes were just running water because he put his whole heart and soul into it.

2. CRANE: Rife’s a wonderful musician alright.

CULLEN: And so from that time on, why, we became very fast friends and every time I run across anything, oh he came in one day and said “Look, I'm gonna build me a little hisso and make it run, you wanna come out and see it. I'm also gonna build a…”

3. CRANE: What year was that you first met him?

CULLEN: That was ‘13.

4. CRANE: 1913.

CULLEN: I'm gonna build he says a, he was living down the street, he and his beloved little wife on the other side of Market and l3th. There was some small homes down there. And I'm gonna build a filiberty. This was in ’14 (1914) when deliveries began to come along and the minute that he saw any designs of a new aircraft engine or anything, he wanted to build it. He wanted to build a hull scutt liberty on a hisson and well he got the hull scutt built and I say it run and run good, a little bit of a thing, about yea big, just a small one about six inches in diameter. He had to make his own cylinders and spark plugs and his own carburetor of course along with everything else. Wound his own springs for his valves, planning gear and everything. And then it was that they (Timken) became so doggone enamored of his abilities that I got to see him and found that he had a nice little place up there and first he had it, he intended to get on that place on the corner. You know where you turn on 4th street and make that little jog on Upus? On the left hand side there's a building there, quite a large building, it’s now a sort of rooming house, at that time the whole, the whole doggone area belonged to Timken as serves (servants) quarters and the big house across the street with the iron railing around it belonged to Timken as the home he lived in. And so when I got the engine overhauled I hauled it up and put it right there, in the garage. And then later on Timken built that place out there on Point Loma. Then he (Timken) moved out there, well I followed him (Rife) out there every night. I used to go and see him. Because there was so much we could talk about in each other’s language that we seemed to understand and, ah, we finally got to a point where I made a pretty steady pilgrimage to the place and especially when we began to build this microscope here. He had two or three small microscopes, something like the one they have at the Museum in Washington D.C., anyway at the Smithsonian. Anyway he began to get pretty deeply involved in bacteriology and he talked to me quite a lot about that. He assembled autoclaves and began to get the stuff together, of course, which you've seen and I picked up a pretty nice little centrifuge for him. He still had it the last time I saw him. And he had to make some bearings for the motor because it was a pretty nice big motor and every time I, anything I ran across I let him know where it was or pick it up and give it to him. Now we became pretty fast friends as you can imagine. I never thought of anything from a monetary standpoint it was just wonderful fun for me. Then he developed this, by the time he had this developed of course he had…

5. CRANE: The big Universal microscope.

CULLEN: Yeah, then he developed also the ray picking up various units. He played with rich strong bridges and a lot of junk for years trying to get what he wanted and he also was in very close contact with old man Steinbeck, very close contact. Old man Steinbeck shipped him out a thousand, umm, great big mass of tubes for his various units. And Roy developed finally a means of testing the polarity of the material in the tubes, and by doing that, by matching the polarity of the filaments to the polarity of the poles, and this he did by process of elimination. At first he was able to develop a dad gum sight more high frequency power than he ever did before. Anything he had done before, anything he could match it at all. And, well, I could talk to you 20 years about these various developments but I have to skip them, I can't take the time because I don't want to be too long. And so he finally got to a point where he, from years of isolation and clarification and purification of these filterable forms, he got purer cultures of T.B. virus, uh, various of the cancer viruses namely carcinomas and there were some petlomas he was able to isolate. He kept them absolutely pure.  He kept a whole mass of guinea pigs and white rats and so forth for inoculations. I’ll never forget it. He always called it inoculations. He had two or three idiosyncrasies in his speech and that was one of them, inoculations. And he finally got to the point where he could produce cancer in the guinea pig in two weeks. The virus was so potent that it would produce a cancer in two weeks. For instance he would produce a sarcoma which is the terminal kind, which usually is pretty well contained in a sack and non-malignant. He could produce those kind of growths in about the same time and sometimes inside of three weeks, inside of a month, rather, to three months he could produce, depending on how you fed the animal, a sarcoma as big as all the rest of the viscera in the main area, abdominal area.

6. CRANE: Could he put this in the rats too, in the rats, guinea pigs, and everything?

: Yes, he tried it in the rats, guinea pigs and rabbits but he found finally that he could confine his efforts to guinea pigs and white rats. Every dad gum one was his pets and he performed the operations on them, the most meticulous operations you ever saw in all your born days. No doctor could ever come near to it at all. No doctor working on a little article mass of the viscera of the human being where the intestines and everything else are so doggone big you know. It’s so simple by comparison. He had to wear himself a big powerful magnifying glass to watch what he was doing. He rigged it up, of course he always had this one he threw down over his one eye at times and he also was very busy with this big glass. He preformed the most marvelous operations you ever saw. Completely eradicating every tentacle out from the intestines, and sew the doggone thing up and it got well and didn’t know anything about it at all. He did it not once but hundreds of times and this is the thing that I wish that was published time and time again. I wish with all my heart that all the detailed information that he had developed could be published because the man deserves it even though he lost so many people’s friendship. During our case, why, he went to the dogs from this liquor that was recommended for him to drink, ah, anyway, he finally got these cultures, he’d get them on the slide, he’d look through this thing here (his first microscope) and you could see them swimming around absolutely motile and active and then he’d say, now you watch that Ben. He’d go turn on the power (of his Rife Machine), when it got to a certain point he’d release the whole doggone flood of power (of the frequency) into the room. Of course he cracked a lot of his glass in his bacterial store house where he had all of his test tubes and stuff. He busted a lot of the glass because he had such high frequency and vibrations that resonated exactly like the glass and as a consequence he lost a lot of good specimens. But to go back to the job, I'd be looking at this, you know, and I’d see all these little things swimming around…

: What years were these, now Ben?

: This was between 1915, 1916.

: 1915, 1916 somewhere in there?

: Let me go back to where I was. I believe that last, this deal, (Rife’s first microscope) was ready by 1923. I think that is when he got into his very active work of bacteriology and I think he finally turned the juice loose why these doggone little things would stop instantly; you couldn't bat your eye quick enough. In other words they would agglutinate in to one little mass and instantly stop. Well he knew he had something. So the minute he did that he’d check the frequencies (of his Rife Machine) and did his level best to get to that frequency again. Then he found he couldn't get to it very well without making a lot of other expensive equipment to exactly locate the frequency and hold it and tie it down to a number, because these frequencies are so high. Well he worked that way for quite a long time and finally he got to a point where he would finally get several fellows around him. The present President of San Diego glass company, you know him, Henry, (Henry Seiner) he spent a lot of time over. Henry is a wonderful fellow. At that time he was so anxious to help and do all he could…

: Did Rife actually build these instruments, these electronic instruments himself?

: Yes, as far as I know. I know he built this (his microscope) himself…

: He built the microscope, yes. He actually did some of the research on the electronic instruments (Rife Machine) himself…  

: Oh, yes, yes. He built the micro-manipulator himself, the micro-dissector and a lot of other stuff; he built his equipment for taking his moving pictures.

: Did you ever see DeForest (Lee DeForest was the father of modern radio) down there in his lab? I think he used to come down once in a while.  

: DeForest, I remember him but not too well. I know Philip Hoyland was in there quite a lot. Phil Hoyland was the one that in my estimation that pulled the final boner which definitely precipitated us into the courts.

: What boner was that? What did he do?

: Well what I think is that, he, Philip Hoyland, developed some little few items in the lab and I don't know what the deal was. I always kept myself aloof from everything but the pure end of it. If there is anything I could learn, I always kept myself aloof. If there was anything I could do for him (Rife) I did it, but there's never a single cent of consideration at anytime, not one penny. And, ah, I do know Phil Hoyland seemed to be appearing to help quite a lot and I think he got into the bacteriology side for Rife a good deal because Rife had so much to work out. And he finally got to a point where he had to delegate some of the work and then pretty soon we were getting these meetings with doctors from the New York State life, from Mayo Brothers. There was Dr. Rosenow, from Mayo Brothers he used to spend a lot of time up there and there was Dr. Arthur I. Kendall and ah…

: Did Kendall work with the electronic instruments (Rife Machines)?

: No he didn't, he would just study and watch what was going on and watch the results.

: He’d see the results of the instruments (Rife Machine) being used. What year was that Ben, about ’31.

: That seemed to be around about the time, about ’29, between ’29 and ’31. You see I had to make a living and I generated around town. I had the 4th and Maple place and quite a business up there for quite a time and lost that to an unfair treatment of a lady who bankrupted, John. Um, I see a man’s face, the man who owned the entire block where the 4th and Maple service station sits on El Prado. It’s funny his mother owned…Jim…

: You mentioned this Dr. Hamer.

: Dr. Hamer, he came into the picture after we built two of the (Rife) machines to use as machines to produce the lethal qualities in the human body, without injuring the human body. We leased them to him at so much a month and he also paid us $20 a month, every month, to keep them calibrated.  Now, Philip Hoyland was pretty good on the oscillograph and oscillator and as a consequence he worked with these two (machines) to keep, he was the one who did the work to keep these doggone things in calibration. He was an English Jew, now I say that not with any thought of malice against the Jewish people because I have had some wonderful Jews in my friendships in San Diego even, Klabber Wagenheimer two of the most kindest fellows I ever met. They did business with me for years and they were the most wonderful fellows, especially Wagenheimer.

: You mentioned this case that got well, what was that, an old man?

: Yeah, Dr. Hamer had him; he ran an average of forty cases a day through his place. He had to hire two operators, he trained them, and watched them very closely and the case histories were mounting up fast. Amongst them of course was this old man from Chicago.

: What did he have, do you remember?

: He had a malignancy all around his face and neck, a big gory mass. Oh, it was terrible, just a red gory mass. It had taken over all around his face, it had taken off one eye lid at the bottom of the eye. It had taken off the bottom of the lower lobe of the ear and had also gone into the cheek area, nose and chin, and the sinus in the atrium basin with the entire area involved right into the ambi-basin. He was a sight to behold. in 6 months all that was left was a little black spot, right here, (on the side of his face) and the condition of that was such that it was about to peel off. Now that old man was 82 years of age. Honest to gosh, I never saw anything like it; it was pitiful, the delight of having a lovely clean skin just like a baby’s skin again, to be healed of something that looked like he was going to be suffering for a long time as an adult. Why, he went back to Chicago. Naturally he couldn't keep still and Fishbein heard about it. Fishbein called him in and the old man was kind of reticent about telling him about it and he made a lot about it. Fishbein of course was unfair in doing so, of course he will have to pay his debt later to the Supreme Creator for having done so,  but he (Fishbein) wined and dined him and finally learned where this machine was. Well, Fishbein got a hold of the Han Realty Company in Los Angeles and of course they are Jewish-German people and no doubt were well intentioned men. The President of the Han Realty Company came down, I forget his first name now and he had several meetings with us and finally he took us out to dinner and stuff like that and finally broached the subject about buying into the corporation. We couldn’t do it and were not going to do it because…

: That’s the Beam Rays Corporation.

: Beam Rays Corporation, we couldn’t do it and we wouldn’t do it, because we hadn't applied to the commissioner of corporations for permission to sell stock, it was a closed corporation, authenticated arrangement. And we were doing very well and we were putting some money in the bank every month over and above expenses by quite a little bit because we were receiving orders from farther and farther around as the renown was going farther. As it spread, we were getting orders and we weren't advertising a dad gum bit. But of course what did it was the case histories of Dr. Hamer and he was very honest about it. He said that “This was the most marvelous development, the most wonderful development of the age.” He was one of the foremost surgeons in this doggone county and very well known on the Pacific coast, that is with his work down at the Paradise Valley Sanitarium. And his case histories were absolutely wonderful. All of you know Dr. Couche, you knew him well, Dr. Couche took Commander Benjamin Harrison’s wife, she had a breast carcinoma, the lower half of the breast was the same condition as that old man’s face, eaten away and she suffered intense agony all of the time. But she didn't want to have it operated on because her husband had told her that if she was ever operated on she would die as sure as she was a foot high because of the metastasizing of the operation and spreading it out in the blood stream. Well, he healed her up perfectly and her breasts took on the normal shape. She was a very well built person and when she realized that she had two normal breasts again it was to her a most marvelous thing…

: Boy I’ll say! Didn't you mention that this Sapiro was the lawyer’s name that Fishbein sent out here?

: Aaron Sapiro was engaged by Fishbein after it was possible for, and this I'm not going to say dead outright but I still have not found anything yet to controvert this statement. Philip Hoyland became disgusted with the whole deal because he was not getting what he felt was his fair share of the stock which was fairly divided amongst all of us in spite of the fact that I had formed the corporation and had used my money to form the corporation and had spent months and months in Los Angeles doing it. I didn't ask any more than the rest. Each of us received 6,000 shares of stock in the original corporation. Hoyland didn't think he was getting a satisfactory deal and so he got a feeling like he wanted to show his oats a little bit and like Hitler and Mussolini and Stalin and that gang they tried to find out somebody who is dissident and bribe them to become stooges for them. Well, the Han Realty Company at the instigation of Fishbein bribed Philip Hoyland to become a stooge. With the result we were kicked into Judge Kelly's court and also they asked a receiver to be appointed which I knew what would happen, we would end up with a deficiency judgment and I could work for another 10 years at hard labor to pay off.

: On what grounds did they bring it into court? The corporation was acting in poor faith?

: That the corporation first was operating without a license and doing this healing work without a license and I wish I could remember all the information on it, there were so many ramifications.

: Now you mentioned that this Judge offered to fight these people?

: Judge Kelly offered to fight the Han Realty Company and actually it was kicked into a straight out and out deal with the American Medical Association then. He offered to defend my case against them but I was broke, I had so doggone much of it. I had a year and three days, I was so doggone flat that I just took a few tools that I had and went down to the back door of Convair and got me a job in the machine shop. And I stayed there for a few months in the machine shop and I kind of lost faith in human nature for awhile. Bertrand Comparet defended us wonderfully. If it hadn't been for Bert we would have been socked in jail for the rest of our lives and we were not guilty in any way shape or form. However it worked out finally that it cooked our goose completely and we just closed up shop.

: What happened to Rife after that?

: Well, Rife was called in to testify two or three times as you know and Judge Kelly was a wonderful man but Rife had never been in court and he just became a nervous jabbering idiot. In that he couldn't stand it and he did his best to keep calm but his hands were shaking like this (Shaking like a leaf) and of course he had started smoking pretty heavily and inhaling it which he didn't use to do before. He knew that smoking was not good for the lungs because he had showed us how; I saw the actual operation of smoking on the lung cell and the effect on the flagellates and so forth. Anyway he took to drinking because the doctor couldn’t find anything to stop his nervousness without forcing him into a drug addict. He thought the next best thing was to just give him a little wine and a little brandy and it would be alright. First he didn’t like the taste of it but the body is a fearfully made thing because it can accommodate to poisons that the human being wills it that it should be taken internally. Finally he got so he had to crave it and then of course no matter how many times I tried to get him tied into the various factories, Lordy Ryans was so anxious to have him build them some of these viewing machines to see the underside of the spot welding program. I was the chief engineer on the development of that doggone thing. I inherited that from Paul Matherly who finally went over to Narmco, where I am now.

: What happen to Rife in between the time that this trial occurred and that time? Wasn’t he rather discouraged?

: Well, he was quite discouraged and he got to selling off a piece here and a piece there to keep his drinking habit up and his little wife would be calling me up, “Why won't you come over and talk to him.” Well I went over and talked to him and of course hard pressed to make a living at times because I had five years of good work at Convair and when I got out of that thing when I could get into a pretty good aviation business. I went broke on that with another gang; they used the funds set aside for taxes and so forth. Anyway they abused their privileges and used funds they shouldn’t have used and so the Government has been after them ever since. We had a good business and I was the instructor in this school called the Southern Sky’s School of Aeronautics. And being honest you get into pretty doggone funny places some times and an honest person always gets used until he gets hip. An honest person will be honest regardless, you can't help yourself and we finally broke that deal up and went into something else later on. Finally, I ended up by going to see Earl Prudden at Ryan’s who had been a very close friend of mine for 40 years and actually I was forced into it. I had built me a home up on the hill, from borrowed money, where I am now, forced into going to work to get pay for it. Of course Earl had been waiting for me for 25 years. He invited me into the corporation when there was only him and T. Claude Ryan. I didn't come because I thought I had this dirigible deal which I want to keep out of the picture, that’s too long of a story.

: Ben can you recall any of the case histories other than this man that Hamer had down there?

: Oh, my, my yes, we would go in there and we would see rectal cancers and stuff of that sort.

: He’d clean those up?

: He cleaned them up completely, absolutely clean. People would come in there with syphilis, not for that purpose but those that had developed cancers in the course of the examinations he'd discover that they had syphilis also or gonorrhea or something like that. By golly it would clean those up completely not a doggone taint of it in their blood stream at all, clinically cured. I would go down to Dr. Hamer and he would very painstakingly pull out these case histories showing the improvement, day by day, of every one of them. Some were slower than others.

: What about Tuberculosis?

: Tuberculosis was cleaned up in a number of cases. He didn't have as many T.B. cases. Old Dr. Yale, he stole the deal for a while. He gave Roy too much whiskey and made an ass of him again. It burns me up all these people; however, Yale is where he has got to realize now.

: Yale’s dead now.

: He’s not dead in the soul, don’t forget that, he’s definitely alive, he’s worse off now than he ever dreamed he'd be because now he has his conscience he’s got to live with. And you can’t hide behind anything.

: Now, he tried to steal the deal from Rife, didn’t he?

: He did. So, he had T.B. cases and he cleaned up some of them up there at his place on the plaza. I used to be in and out of there all the time.

: Rife use to work with him down there, didn’t he?

: He roped him into a point where Rife practically had to. Rife was always looking for help because he still had the ardent desire to see the stuff (machine) get into use and although during his clear moments, he had sane moments when he wasn't under the influence of liquor, he would endeavor to progress but every dad gum day at a certain time he would go and get one little nip out of his car and that was the end of it. From that time on he became modulate, useless as tits on a boar for the rest of the day.

: Rife told me that Yale used to take care of all the prostitutes down on the other side of Market Street.

: He had a lot of Syphilis cases and he cured a lot of them up. He cleaned them right up. Ah, there were so many of them in there that I didn't like my wife to go around his place, because they were hard characters.

: He told me also that Yale was unclean in his work and he gave some guy an injection and it killed him the next day and after that Rife took all his stuff out of there and moved out.

: Well, that was the time when Yale had to lie himself to beat the band. One thing about Yale he always anticipated trouble, because of that, before trouble occurred; he got to know all of these men. Now one of the boys in the D.A’s office, one of the top fellows in the office had a wife who was suffering very terribly and Yale got the person so she could get back to almost normal health again. And of course this guy became his slave. Never charged him a nickel for it and that way he always built himself up a pretty good background of help anytime he needed it. That was the only way he got off from that killing. This is the first time I have mentioned that to anybody because now that he is dead of course, I can’t do him any harm. But I haven’t had reason to say anything about it since that time because I have just buried the thing completely. The less I think about it the better I am off. I enjoy myself now, I am very happy with my sweetheart, I almost lost her twice over some of these doggone things, this whole deal.

: I imagine she was unhappy about you doing all this work? 

: Well, watching me, I was making a living but when I got into court (Beam Rays Trial) I couldn't make a living and I lost every dad gum nickel I put into this. It cost me $3200 in cash myself in the doggone thing.

: You said you almost lost your house, didn’t you?

: Well, I lost the home at the corner of McKinley and Redwood, a beautiful place. I had just a few payments to make on it, I couldn’t make them. It got to be the depression so I didn’t have the money, so I lost it.

: That was fighting this case.

: During the time I was fighting this case. By in large it was a real rough deal for my wife and I have made every effort ever since that time to make her life as happy as possible. I put everything into the home I can for her convenience. She has a washer, an electric ironer, an electric dryer, deep freeze refrigerator, electric organ, and every convenience, electric floor polisher and stuff like that and disposal and everything under the sun I could put in there for her. And as a result I have been very, very sorry about Roy. Time and time again I had a chance to bring him into Ryan. When I was at Convair I met the boys at Convair and would take them up to his lab.

: I first met him in 1950; he had a drafting set down there on display at Rodney Stokes. That was the finest drafting set I ever saw and I wanted that. It took me about three trips out there before I bought it from him. And every time I would go out there he would tell me about this that had gone on in the past, you know, and that's what brought me into it. I became interested and decided to prove it out for myself.

: Well, of course, later on we formed the sea-water conversion outfit and Roy came into the picture on that and he was developing fairly well, but again, continued application of the liquor. I would get over there at, I would say in the morning at 10 a.m. and he would be just as bright and dapper as he could be, feeling wonderful. And then by the time he got over, well, about noon a little after he’d excuse us and slip out to his car; that was the end of it, well, that time he came back and he had a smell on his breath. My sense of smell is very keen. I may look old and I am old and I’ll be 69 next, second day of next month. But since I stopped smoking in 1945 when I saw what he had on the slides in 1945 and watched the effect of smoke in the lung cell, watched the flagellates lay down and watched the loss of oxygen infiltration in the lymphatic glands and down into the blood stream through the lung cells and then saw how weary those flagellates were, these flagella were in coming back up into the cells when you shoot oxygen into and exhaust the smoke. I learned something that nobody has ever taken away from me and I knew I was not a smoker and I stopped it instantly. And I took all my cigars and gave them away at Convair and the fellows I give them to are all dead as far as I know now. I know that Captain Lloyd Learner who was then the Captain of the guards of Convair at that time. And since that time I have obtained a very keen sense of smell at my age and also my memory is good in many aspects of course but cases where I have so much to recall like this deal here, I can’t recall one millionth part of it right now. I could if I were with you long enough to find out. By the way I will say this though; it would have been nice if you would have let me know you were taking this tape recording of these statements because this is more of a little underhanded deal. If you had told me about it I would have been happy to cooperate with you, I would have given you more detail about him than to have given you detail of me.

: I'm more interested in you. I like this cold turkey because it's really better because it doesn’t have a put on attitude. I have no ax to grind. I would love you to see, we have historical records here from Dr. Couche and from Dr. Stafford in the hospital who has used one of these instruments recently. In fact I've got about 30 hours now of historical data. Did you ever hear of Dr. Dreusel.

: Well, Dreusel had a patient of his up there in that brown stucco house on 6th Avenue there. I see that the place has been turned into some other kind of an arrangement now, an apartment. Anyway, he had a very, very important case. He had the wife of the Secretary of the Treasury in the early Roosevelt era or I think it was possibly in President Hoover’s time. However, she was dying of a very serious condition, she was suffering terrific fevers, they couldn’t reduce them and they tried everything and they called on us, if we couldn’t quickly transport one of our portables up there and get it into place and give her a treatment. The doctor characterized it; I’ve forgotten now what it was, whether it was undulant fever or what it was. It was acting like undulant fever of the worst type. And he called, I wish I could remember the lady’s name, I would recognize it instantly if I saw it, but, he called us in and we got the machine up there. We had to use a dolly to get it up the elevator shaft and so forth, turned it on her, he gave her a good bathing with the current. He gave her several frequencies up into the range which operates best on fevers. In fifteen minutes her fever began to subside and by the next day she had no fever and the doctor prescribe, of course, the nourishing diet and so forth and other prescriptions that he used at that time and it wasn’t too long she was well. This fever began to subside in fifteen minutes from the time they quit that treatment; that I can tell you as honest as I am sitting here. Now then there was another doctor, I’ve forgotten his name now and I know him so well. There are a large number of them in San Diego here. Most of them are doctors who had to do with hydro-therapy and physical-therapy and things of that sort where they could work this in without being called Charlatans and you know anyone who had one of these, a medical man, he was either told to get rid of it right now as soon as we started our case in court, in Judge Kelley’s court, or else lose his membership in the A.M.A. and that's what forced Dr. Hamer out of it.  Then of course he returned his two machines back to us and we had to cover him on his expenses, but that of course eventually took place with all of them, that is what shut us down.

: What happened to all of the machines Ben, who’s got them all?

: I don't know, I said well this is the end of it for me I’m gonna go and get me a job. Dr. Couche kept on with his machine in the office there in the Timken Electric Building, now up on one of the top floors. Then once in a while if I had a little something wrong with me I would go up and see him. But the reason that we didn't get sued for a malpractice was because we had asked Dr. Couche to officiate at every one of the applications of this machine to anyone. We had a little girl, her name is Laurnel Draple. She is in San Diego now, Draple Fransico Blifus Company and her father was Frank Draple and she was a chum of my daughter in school. She was a beautiful little singer. She had the loveliest sweetest voice, but she couldn't sing too long because the dropping into the throat would cause her to have difficulty in getting rid of it. She had a tarel situation which is what we called it then. They call it Sinus now, Chronic Sinus. She did have a lot of difficulty both in the frontal sinuses and the antrum basin. Dr. Couche gave her the treatments in our offices on the 6th floor of the old Broadway building and she became so thoroughly completely cured that she could sing beautifully after that and there's a lot of history I could tell you back of that but that is beside the point. That's a case I watched get well in the apace of about 6 treatments, possibly might of been ten, but we gave her those treatments because she was a close friend of mine and my daughter. Frank Drapel until he passed on was ever grateful for me on that account. It didn't hurt me any and I have no conscience that bothers me at all. Well, many cases I have forgotten but if I were to set and think for a long time I could think up a lot of cases, now those cases that were up there in Pet Lomas. One man had developed petlomas around the neck here and eaten away so bad that there were cords and bones of the neck were bare. Why, that case was a remarkable case. Roy used his clinic machine for that, his original machine.

: Did Henry Siner see any of these cures?

: There's no reason why he shouldn’t have done, he was there in the lab all of the time. He spent a lot of time in the lab. The point is this, this fellow; the pictures show how that fellow’s neck came back to normal. It was a little bit pitted, the skin was, but other than that it was perfect. That was watched by Dr. Milbank Johnson, Dr. Arthur I. Kendall and Dr. Rosenow, those three. Dr. Gruner was in later on from Montreal Canada. But Dr. Gruner became a little bit scared of himself, he was afraid to state what he knew, he lost his nerve.

38. CRANE: One of these machines, the best machine was sent up to Dr. Gruner and he wrote me a letter and he told me he was afraid to use it and had given it to a Priest up there who was a radio ham and used it for spare parts. It is pitiful that double dial machine, the light wouldn't work.

: Do you know anything about Spiritualism?

: Very little.

: Well, I don't want to scare you to death, would you like to know who is beside you right now?

: I don't mind.

: Well, Dr. Couche is right beside you right now, flashed a blue light on me three times so I had to recognize him. God bless the dear old soul because I loved him very much. He was a very grand gentleman in the body and of course he still remains in the spirit. He is a very, very powerful man.

: I think about him very often.

: Well, then you can understand why he is around you now, however that of course is another story. I’m a spiritualist, one that believes in the true story that Jesus taught when he came on the earth plain and I try to live just as he taught. He was the foremost spiritualist of this world, everything He did was spiritualism. So we go back from that.

: There was one thing I wanted to see about this clinic in La Jolla in 1934, that Milbank Johnson had.

: I didn't get into it that very much. I was up there once and saw the place and got into the old Ellen B. Scripps home.

: That was in 1934?

: It seemed earlier than that (Cullen was mistaken, it was in 1934) because that was prior to this machine used in the development of our machinery. He used his clinical machinery equipment (Collin B. Kennedy receiver models 110 and 281) to produce the high frequencies that were current at that time.

: I understand that this was sponsored by a Special Research Committee of the University of Southern California.

: That I believe is true, I think is true. I’m pretty certain that that was true.

: If you go up to the University now they don’t have any records, you know they very carefully destroyed everything.

CULLEN: It was so controversial they were scared to death. You see Roy arrogated himself some certain, very wonderful, shall I say, degrees. Which were questionable? I don't know if they were or they weren't (The degrees may have been legitimate; Cullen admits he really didn’t know). Those that thought they knew were quite out-spoken about it, but I personally, it just didn't bother me a particle.

: There was a period of time at the First World War I think it was around 1918 that Roy was supposedly in the Secret Service. Do you know anything about that?

: That I have never been able to controvert.

: For five or six years he was a special aide to the President.

: That I've never been able to check or controvert.

: As such he was free to move anyplace he wished all over the world.

: He seemed to know so much about the country that I used to drive around over there in France, Italy, Switzerland and Spain, all around. He knew towns that I knew in fact he would mention in order to check them up.

: He won't say anything about this period, but he told me that several people were executed on this death line.

: That of course is possible. And so as a consequence I took it for what it was worth. I believed him because there were times when he would talk in terms that I would understand. In hundreds of little towns that I visited in France and Alsace Lorraine parts of Germany and Italy and Switzerland and so forth.

: Now I want to go back to this clinic again, did you ever see Alvin G. Foord there, the pathologist?

: Yes, I met the man but never had much to do with him, as I recall.

: He was supposed to be the pathologist for the group of the Special Research Committee, according to Rife, now I wondered if you…

: Now, I met the man who was introduced to me as this man Foord. But personally didn't know him very well. I spent most of my time after my supper until midnight or two o' clock in the morning with Roy because he was working out his formulas and things of that sort and I was more or less watching from the mechanical side because mechanics are my main forte. And because we had chumminess and friendliness in common that was not actually born of the high technical information that he was developing. So there were times when I didn't bother to get into the picture at all. And it was only again when I began to see whether we could do anything about salt water conversion and again after several years of not having a chance to see him and of course it’s been sporadic back and forth since that time. And of course until his little wife died I used to try and get out to say hello to her. My wife and she were very, very friendly. She was one of the sweetest souls I ever met and I don't believe there is anybody any nicer than Mrs. Rife. I don’t care what nationality they are. Well, I've run a little bit low on what I can think of right now, what I’ll have to do is if you want to carry this on farther I’ll have to start breaking out…

: I want to show you a little publication I have, this sort of, it’s on both sides. It shows a pictorial history of this thing.

: This is the old frequency instrument, yeah; I recognize a lot of that old stuff. Yeah, I see some of the equipment there. Here's one of the first (Beam Rays) machines we built. You see…

: This one is still in use. It’s used by Dr. Tulley down there on Logan Ave. He bought it from Dr. Couche and he’s cured several cancer cases with it as well as all kinds of pyorrhea, trench mouth. He uses it in his dental practice, you know.

: It seems like this has been done many, many times but all of the small items we didn't think much about. You see, what Rife was so anxious to do was develop the ability to broadcast the high frequency over a large area through the means of KFI (KFI was and still is a Los Angeles A.M. radio station at 640 on the A.M. dial). You see this ray of current is thrown out through the tube by another ray, a carrier ray. And because of that he found that it would be possible to broadcast that same ray. And everyone within a certain radius would receive a free healing treatment, say a certain frequency for cancer and so forth.

: He was certainly an idealist.

: Honest to God, for it makes me so sick when I think about Roy, how he has gone now and how we really and truly…

: We only have one error here on the microscopes, this microscope was supposed to have been built in 1920 but I have it down as 1930. I checked with Roy…

: This actually was one (his first microscope that he used with Dr. Kendall) he used for the means of taking motion pictures and of course a very low magnification microscope compared to this one here (The Universal Microscope). This one has been up to 62,000.

: Sixty two thousand. Have you ever verified that?

: Well, I have worked with it. I have locked myself into the seat at 52,000 but I wasn’t too capable of holding myself still. You do have to hold yourself still. I've seen the time when Roy set in the doggone seat without moving, watching the changes in the frequency in his machine, watching to see when the time would arrive when the virus would, that is the virus on the slide would agglutinate so that it would definitely prove a certain frequency. Twenty four hours is nothing for him. Forty eight hours he has done that many times, sit there never moving.

: Right straight through?

: Yes, not even drinking. He wouldn't even touch anything accept a little water maybe, all of the time and his nerves just like cold steel and he never shook. His hands never quivered. Of course he would train beforehand and then go through a very careful workout after that time to build himself up again. But that is what I would call one of the most magnificent sights of human control and endurance.

: Yes, it's wonderful.

: If you have ever sat underneath a light tied to a seat and have someone drip a spot of water on your head for a little while you would understand what I mean. That's the way they set people crazy years ago. I’ve seen them do that.

: Does 1920 seem about right for the first microscope, or before that?

: Just about '20 is right because up until that time he had not bothered too much about it. He talked about it, he talked about bacteriology way back in 1913, he talked about it but he was busy with Mr. Timken. He actually was a chauffeur there but later they hired a chauffeur so he could confine all of his efforts to this work. You know he saved Mrs. Timken (It was actually Mrs. Amelia C. Bridges. She was Timken’s sister and Rife lived above her garage) from death, once of a very, very serious condition, she was becoming poisoned from food that was in her refrigerator. He made a very careful analysis of everything and found out what the trouble was. The doctors didn't know, but he stopped it right then and there. She used to come over after she got well and say, well Roy, I understand you've got some more experiments to do, how much do you think you'll need for these experiments, will $30,000 do? Just like that. She walked over to him one day with a cane; apparently she had had an injury at some time and walked with a cane. And she came over and she said those very words in my very hearing and he said, well, thank you very much. I'll be over to see you a little later. I'll be over for your treatment a little later on. He always went over when the doctor was there to make sure the doctor preformed the proper treatment. She relied on Roy absolutely implicitly and of course he had the use of the home if he wanted it and of course he had nice quarters over the garage, very lovely quarters.
You see he has a strip illumination picture here. He used all of that of course, dark field illumination, slit illumination, inverse light illumination and practically everything under the sun, in that one machine, it’s a wonderful machine. I can’t remember all that we used to do with it but now of course it would come back to me if I talked long enough but of course…

: You've actually seen the cancer virus over the Universal microscope?

: I have seen the cancer viruses; I have seen the polio virus. I’ve watched the polio virus instantly change from motile to that condition, what we call agglutination. I've seen the T.B. virus. You see you take and inoculate an animal with, we’ll say, a T.B. rod or the bacteria. It takes a long time to come down with the T.B. Give him a dose of T.B. virus and he is down in two weeks, often times earlier. And the same thing applies to the polio viruses and of course there are a large number of those. Roy didn't isolate all of them but he showed many of these people. Old Dr. Dingham came over there one time as many others did. He would show them the whole story, he was so anxious to have this information passed on. And the colossal ignorance of the doctor, he said, well, hum, it’s interesting if true. Saw it with his own naked eyes and then said, “Interesting if true.” And that would be the sum total of the average intelligence of the average doctor. That’s the reason that I got to the point that I couldn't see anything of the average doctor. Most of them would spend a few years looking at a microscope, all they’d do to pass, they would have a set of a few small microscopes with a magnification of a 1200 diameters would pass in front of them and see what this kind of bacteria would look like or what T.B. rod would look like. They never saw a virus and they had to imagine it, they didn’t see it, they just had to imagine all of these things. And here was a man (Rife) showing people, showing doctors these viruses of many different kinds of diseases, especially these three deadly ones T.B., Polio, and cancer. And what do they say "Hum, interesting if true." It went clear over their heads; it was too much for them. And they were our medical men who were supposed to be taking care of our health. I haven't had to go to a doctor, thank God, for a long time. I don't intend to. If I cultivated the friendship of one it would be the fact on the friendship side and not because I wanted to go and be treated at all. And I have kept well ever since I quit smoking and kept very well indeed. An occasional cold once every three or four or five years and then I've only had one cold in eight years. This one cold was over two years ago and that's the way I like to keep it. Of course I thank the good Lord that, it isn't me that's doing it because I'm just a little skinny runt of 118 lbs. That is what I weighed this morning stripped. But at the same time this is some of the information, I wish I could give you more. But it just doesn't come to me.

: You saw the publications made by the Journal of the Franklin Institute, didn't you?

: Yes I saw that, I know all about that, time and time again since that time some of these medical men have made the proud discovery that they had isolated, we’ll say, one of the viruses of cancer, had isolated one of the viruses of polio. Why that was one of the most ridiculous things in the world. Thirty five years ago Roy Rife showed them these things. And Dr. Gruner saw them, and Dr. Arthur I. Kendall saw them, and Dr. Rosenow. Rosenow was a very fine fellow and he believed in Roy and so did Dr. Milbank Johnson. It's a pitiful thing too as far as this saying goes, you don't amount to a tinker's cuss in your own country, or words to that effect. Well, these doctors out here they thought Rife, they still called him a chauffeur like some people call me a mechanic, yes, and I've been an engineer for many years and a teacher for many years. I taught the aviation machiners school for 15 months over there at the Naval Air Station during the war. And put it on its feet before we sent the whole 10,000 students to Norman, Oklahoma. And it’s a funny thing; people don't think much of you in your own country.

: It’s a shame.

: It’s a shame with Roy and it’s a pity because we have in this little room here, we’ve got stuff in this room now, if used the way it should be used and if one of these machines was to be reworked and thoroughly analyzed by the abilities that he possessed at that time, we could start the proposition going again which would again demonstrate that you could cure cancer and all crazy notions of usurping the rights of the American Medical Association to the contrary notwithstanding. They definitely could take a leaf out of Roy Rife’s book and do an awful lot of good to this world for sickness and disease.

: I agree.

: As a consequence we have lost millions of people from disease that could have been healed by Rife’s machine.

: We are losing a quarter of a million people every a year on cancer, right now. Published figures you know.

: Look at doctor, what’s his name, the fellow who wrote that health book, a fellow of the college of surgeons for 40 years, he quit and retired and wrote about, Dr. Quigley a very wonderful doctor, he spoke about the tremendous cost in Cancer. Well, I can’t say much more right now I’ve…

: Let me give you one of these books of the Journal of the Franklin Institute. You can have those too if you want Ben. I got these from Dr Lee, he also wrote up on this publication.

: He was quite an inventor.

: Dr. Lee has this Lee foundation for nutritional research and those books are available at 25 cents a copy; he has preserved some of Rife’s knowledge.

: That is a strange thing because I was sort of an understudy for Dr. Lee in regard to nutrition. I took on a nutritional supplement here in the State of California. I developed a lecture service here in five counties. I did fairly well but you can’t make much money at it because people don’t want to be healed. They don’t care to be healed. They like to dissipate the way they like to dissipate. If they like a lot of coffee, they drink a lot of coffee. If they want to smoke, there is no way in the world to stop them from smoking unless they come to a point where a doctor says you’ll have to stop smoking or else go in a pine box. The point is this, our creator never made smoke to purify our blood stream and it is purified by oxygen and when the flagellates lay down they don’t get rid of the carbon dioxide on one hand and they can’t develop the intake of oxygen to turn the blood from blue to red as it passes through the lungs. I learned that so I have cut it out and I have to fight it all the time because I get a lot of second hand smoke down at the factory.

: If we get this thing going again would you want to pitch in and help some more or have you decide…

: I just don’t know what good I would be. I don’t know how long it will be before I can leave the factory because I have a little more to pay on my home, a matter of a couple thousand dollars more and I’d like to stay long enough to clean that up and then retire. And then if there happened to be something I could do to make a little something on the side with my social security, why it would be something I could enjoy.

: Fine.

: I like Roy Rife. I’ll always remember Roy as my Ideal, of course the man…

: I have never met anybody myself and I trained for fifteen years myself and when I come up against him, hell, I don’t know anything you know, I have never met anybody like him either.

: He has a tremendous capacity for knowledge and he also has a tremendous capacity for remembering what he learned and he definitely, to me, well he was just my ideal that was all. Outside of old Teddy Roosevelt, why he was my next ideal and that’s the reason I enjoyed being in his company so much all the time. It later was sickening to see the man suffer from his own inability to stop the drink, other than that in his lucid moments, I don’t know of any man any smarter than him and I’ll bank him up against a hundred doctors because he did know his stuff with his scientific knowledge in so many lines. Look at the beautiful guns he used to make. I watched him make a gun, watched him make fishing rods and watched him build a model of a racing shell and a racing shell. I watched him do some fast work with it and saw him do some tremendous work with it back at Yale and some other places and there were so many things. He built so much. Look at the beautiful lenses that he built where you could take 3D pictures with one single kind of a lens and all this stuff that he developed. He had so many wrinkles that he could have cashed in and made millions out of it if he had wanted to and I do mean millions of dollars. Which would have benefitted the human race; irrespective of this tremendous thing that he built that we call the Rife ray machine. I have always liked Roy and with all of his faults, I love him still. Did he ever produce that big log of all the information that he produced, recorded, about each bacteria.

: Yes we have the book, there it is.

: Fine and dandy. I recognize it now because that tells a story of so many of the characteristics of each doggone virus and each doggone bug that he examined. The job where he arranged those hookworms all together in a line with the micro-manipulator and then took a picture of them and enlarged them so you could see them at a million times. My gosh, that was a wonderful job in itself and then when he took that embryo and encased it in a case of wax and made those micro-dissections of it which were so doggone thin that you could look through the whole thing, a perfect little embryo.

: We have some pictures on the wall of those here now. Of course what I know about it was just simply the history. We have a lot of values on electronics that don’t mean anything in that book because nobody can even correlate them.

: That’s the biggest problem. We tried to get Beth Wilman to help him to write a book and of course they started trouble with him because they tried to tell people that he became enamored of the girl and he wasn’t. In my estimation, Roy was one of the most genteel, gentle, self-effacing moral man I ever met. Not once in all the years I was going over there to the lab and that was approximately thirty years, did I ever hear him say one word out of place.

: Did the Beam Ray Corporation ever get any of these exact frequencies that were used?

: Philip Hoyland was supposed to have them. And he, Hoyland, began to develop miserly and wouldn't pass them on to others and he thought he had a lever and he wouldn’t pass them on to others so that they could calibrate the machines. It became a dog eat dog game and that’s how it got kicked into the receivership. We didn’t go into receivership, they developed an injunction about us using the machines in the operating of the business and so we had to defend ourselves and we came out with a clean slate. Judge Kelly gave us a completely clean slate in spite of the array of legal talent they marshaled against us, with only one man, Bert Comparet on the other side nevertheless Beam Rays Corporation came out with a clean slate. But I came out broke and I went to work at Convair and stayed there a few months as a machinist. Then they said it would be better if I had a machine shop for myself and do all of the experimental work for them, so they gave me a nice big room next to the test lab and I went around the factory and gathered up all the nicest machines I could find and I just enjoyed myself there. Then one day, Bob Williams, who used to be the foreman of the machine shop came to me and said, "Ben, Walter Thatcher from the vocational training school wants to see you" and I knew Walter because I had taught in vocational and he said Ben, “I want you to go over to the Naval Air Station and head up the Aviation Machinist Mate school curriculum and see if you can’t get things going. Well, I stayed there fifteen months and passed about seven thousand boys through my hands. Then they wanted to make me senior instructor back in Norman, Oklahoma because I had passed all exams. I was associate instructor while I was here. My mother and my mother-in-law were both in the hospital so I couldn’t leave my wife to have to take care of them both so I decided to go back to Convair and went back in as an engineer. They couldn’t put me in the machine shop again because I knew too doggone much they said. So I worked as an engineer and I proved that I knew more about engineering than I had said anything about and I stayed with them until ‘45 as a liaison engineer and then quit. Then I went to work for Ryan in 52.

: I was with Rife at the time this Ryan deal came thru and as I understand it, he was to work but when it came down to actually hiring him they never did it.

: No, I’ll tell you why. One of the big troubles with Roy is that he would sometimes take a little nip to still his nerves and the fellows over there, I brought him into the plant myself and I arranged all of the meetings with the officials. I can’t remember all of their names now. You see I was the engineer on the panel for the development of the spot welding program, for the KC130 and the 707. I brought him in because they talked about closed circuit television to see the under spots. There was too much aberration there and too much difficulty there to be sure you had the right kind of deal and it took them a long time to finally perfect it. They did however finally perfect it and they use them in closed circuit TV now but it cost them a lot of money. And the system that Roy had developed would have been a series of prisms and mirrors to magnify the spot and to maintain its true relative value from the visual stand point and it would have been a much cheaper deal but we would have needed several machines; see several of these units. Well, I warned Roy, don’t touch the liquor at least until you are through and out of here. Well, the smell on his breath made them hesitate, hesitate long enough, even though they requested him to produce drawings, rough drawings. When I brought him in the second time he had another smell on his breath and I knew it was all over. And Bob Fullerton, who was then chief of electrical welding systems and Palmer the chief of industrial engineering and so forth. I had all of these big boys in the plant and they were ready to give him the contract for about $25,000. But by golly, I did my level best to keep him away from them so they could not smell his breath cause my sense of smell is keen. Instantly of course it reflected, they didn’t say much about it but it made them hesitate and think and finally Geo Swabb who was the 2nd in charge of the industrial engineering group said, well let’s try one of these TVs. They tried it and it didn’t work too well but they went a little further and they finally went to TV. That made me sick because I thought at least again I had a chance to get Roy into something where he could make some money. These men from Convair, all of the lab groups, the development groups, I had some of the biggest men from Convair, Johnny Wainwright who was then chief of the PBY group and Bill Sandcook and Frank Fink and the whole gang were over there but he fell down because he got mottled, started to tell that he never took a cent for it and that used to get to him. He’d get to the point where he would say that he never took a cent for anything that he ever did, which he didn’t do, and then he’d get mottled and he would turn away and the tears would come down his face. Well, if he took a deep breath to recover from the sob why he’d breathe out and they would catch the liquor and that was the end of it. So they walked away. That’s the pitiful part about this whole doggone deal and that’s why Roy has been a victim of circumstances which were not of his own making.

: They definitely were not of his own making. Well it looks like the American Medical Association has put their mark on him alright just like they did on the other doctors using his instruments.

: Apparently they brain washed them all.

: They put their mark on him alright. Hamer is a whipped boy you know. He doesn’t say anything anymore.

: Well yes, he was very well indoctrinated.

: I think Kendall was paid off about $200,000. He went down deep into Mexico and he bought a ranch to that tune and the Mexicans cleaned him out of that so he is living off his son-in-law today in La Jolla.

: It’s a strange thing how the cause and effect really act in people’s lives. Now I’ve lived long enough to see it happen so many times and I warn people, when they start cussing around me, when they try to pull something phony and say oh well nobody will know about it, why I warm them, that there is no way of keeping this information unavailable, some people will never hear it as long as they live.

: We had this up in front of the public health board here a year ago and Kendall wrote a letter to the board stating that he had never seen the ray used.

: Oh rot. Can you beat that? You mean Arthur I. Kendall?

: Yes. I have his letter here.

: Well, I never would have believed or thought that a man would become such a prostilite. (Selling himself)

: I never did either…

: Or would, shall I say, debase his own intelligence.

: Upon this letter, I base the obvious fact that he was paid off.

: He must have been.

: There is another man that did the same thing, Karl Meyer, of the Hooper Foundation in San Francisco. He doesn’t remember being on the Special Medical Research Committee of the University of Southern California etc.

: I heard of him, yes but I didn’t know much about Karl Meyer.

: We made a liar out of him too.

: Well they used to beat a pathway to Rife’s lab door and that was a beautiful lab at one time.

: We have moving pictures of it here.

: It was so beautifully arranged inside. The equipment was just exactly right and the operating equipment, his study was just wonderful. It was a place of relics and the atmosphere could not be duplicated anywhere. Well, John I’m going to have to run.

: Thank you Ben Cullen.

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